10th Anniversary 4on4 CTF Tournament

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  • #11808
    Profile photo of =MXT=Fred.cpp
    =MXT=Fred.cpp
    Keymaster

    The 10th anniversary tournament is on.
    Feel free to comment about It; request players, apply to be a referee, donate a server, or whatever you feel is needed!

    This has also a very active facebook group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/fear.community/

    Facebook FEAR Combat page:
    https://www.facebook.com/FEAR.Combat.Community

    #11809
    Profile photo of =MXT=Fred.cpp
    =MXT=Fred.cpp
    Keymaster

    BTW =MXT= Origin Team is confirmed for the tournament.
    =MXT=Alpha team in progress!

    #11873
    Profile photo of Tgs0mat
    Tgs0mat
    Member

    Team Name : Anger Aggro Control [AAC]
    Leader : Aemkei
    Attendance : 4
    Team Roster :

    [AAC] Aemkei
    [AAC] Queen
    [AAC] Mat
    [AAC]

    Reserve :

    [AAC]
    [AAC]

    #11915
    Profile photo of André
    André
    Member

    Ok, so I’ve been looking at the rules for this tourney and so far to me, some of these settings don’t make much sense from a CTF point of view. I’m hoping some of these settings can be changed so it can provide us with the best balance and gameplay possible.

    http://anniversary10thoffear.tourney.cc/news/7563/rules/

    -Meds : 1 – This is fine.
    -Grenades : 3 – Fine.

    -RunSpeed : 1.4 – It encourages UA way more than needed and gives weaker players a cheap ‘way’ out of a battle if it’s a close quarters one. In my opinion, we shouldn’t let the outcome of a match be decided by UA, which is what you’re doing here. With this speed, you’re giving the UA way more power than it should have. In my opinion, 1.3 provides the best balance between weapons and UA.

    -FlaggerRunSpeed: default (it’s 1.2 I guess) – This setting is entirely dependant on the previous runspeed setting. It’s reasonable to assume that the flag carrier should have a movement penalty when compared to a non-carrier. However, with the settings as they are here, the difference in runspeed between a flag carrier and a regular player is 0.2, which, in my opinion, is too much of a speed difference and it’s unfair to the flag carrier. Imagine playing a 1v1 where you move with 1.2 speed and your opponent with 1.4. You would be very limited… I think this setting should be changed to 1.3 if the server runspeed stays at 1.4, or 1.2 if the admins decide to change the runspeed to 1.3. I think this change would introduce a better dynamic to a match and it wouldn’t punish flag carriers so hard, making it a more fun to watch match.

    -TimeLimit : 10 – Another setting that is hard to understand for me. Why would you make a CTF match last as long as a TDM match? The CTF maps are 2x bigger, if not more. The work involved in getting armor/medkits, going to your enemy’s base, more than likely dying a few times, defending your flag, waiting for a good time to attack, getting their flag and returning to your base is too much to be made in just 10 mins. This time limit, against a good team, will give you maybe 3 to 4 attacks. This setting should be changed to 15, OR at the very least 13, to give both teams a few more minutes to plan attacks and to possibly make a comeback in case they’re losing.

    -ScoreLimit : 0 – Fine.
    -FriendlyFire : ON – Fine.

    -RespawnWaitTime: 5 seconds – Ok, another setting that doesn’t make sense to me. Why make this setting 5 seconds + a 10 min. time limit? For example: If a good player only dies 10 times in a match, this player will have to wait 5 seconds each time he dies. That comes to 50 seconds. You can score a flag on Spillkill with that amount of time… Again, let’s not leave this tournament’s matches to be decided by cheap UA or, in this case by rules that weren’t given any thought… To have a properly balanced match, this should be changed to 3 seconds. It still punishes the killed player BUT not so much that it’s impossible to recover. Imagine if a whole team dies at the same time while defending the flag (not so uncommon in CTF), the flag carrier has time to run away and become impossible to reach by the time our team spawns. With a 3-second spawn time, if you get a good spawn, you may still have a chance to catch the flag carrier, depending on the map.

    -Weapons Restrictions: Plasma(type7),Rocket Launcher (mod3),Mines(ATS),Remotes,Cannon- Fine

    -extratime: OFF – Why not? How would you decide group matches that end in a draw? My suggestion would be to make it ‘Sudden Death’ 3 or 5 mins. extra time. Whoever scores first in Sudden Death, wins.

    -all other settings: default – Haven’t checked other settings, but off the top of my head, there’s nothing really worth mentioning.

    Let me know what you think ;:)

    #11919
    Profile photo of =MXT=Fred.cpp
    =MXT=Fred.cpp
    Keymaster

    I think the timelimit =10 is fine, but extra time should be longer, maybe 5 min.

    I myself would like RespawnWaitTime=0, but known players usually like It longer (no pun intented), so I can’t really say anything about that one.

    #11922
    Profile photo of André
    André
    Member

    Wouldn’t you say that a 15 or even a 13 min. time limit would be more appropriate given the maps size? Also, there is a lot more involved in CTF than just killing things, as I’ve explained in my previous post… Which is why I don’t understand why you would use a 10 minute timer… You just don’t have any margin for error at that point.
    Also, not to brag, but I’ve been involved in practically every tournament since the early days of FEAR and I’ve seen all kinds of rules being used, from 18 minute timers to 1.2 to 1.5 runspeed, 3 medkits, 2 medkits, and so on… So all I’ve written in that post is what I genuinely think would work the best for our last tournament… 😉

    #11965
    Profile photo of s0ftm4rk
    s0ftm4rk
    Member

    Hey, i looked too at the rules of the tournament of this special occasion..
    For starts i apologize for my very long post, but since this is a special occasion that won’t repeat itself, it’s still hard to think for a 20th anniversary in the future but i really hope so. In the middle-end of the post you find the Rules and the Gameplay rules i wrote. I’m very pragmatic but when it comes to rules i think we agree we have to discuss a little more than normal.
    Among other people i think it’s pretty much useless to say that putting to many limits to this CTF tournament’s rules is a deterrent for many people to play this tournament.. I’ve discuss with people who like and played in CTF servers for quite some time, i’m myself one of these, since i’m a member/moderator of an old CTF clan..

    First of all, before saying what i think about the rules i want to remind why this CTF tournament was created in the first place.. It’s not just a simple tournament like 1v1s where, i can understand, you don’t have to be distracted by mines in order to measure the shooting skill of someone.. This is a tournament of the 10th anniversary were we must celebrate the release date of this amazing game! F.E.A.R. – First Encounter Assault Recon.
    Since like i said this is not just a simple tournament, and plus is a CTF, where strategy and team work mean a lot more here than in any other type of match in F.E.A.R..

    Now let’s come to the rules!

    I’ve never seen a CTF with/without custom maps that didn’t allowed remotes and mines..
    I understand that in a CTF might be itchy to take a flag and then discovering too late that the place has been all mined. (Like MB/Brz3zio said, and he is right, although in a normal CTF you don’t have to complaint about it, since you have defended the flag of your team like your duty says!) The rest comes with good sense of a loyal way to play..
    But since this is a tournament i can understand why some people used to 1v1 tournaments would want to remove it, but then again, this is not a 1v1 but a CTF tournament.
    You are always free to put some location restrictions like don’t mine the flag, or at 5 meters near it. One good and respectable CTF player MUST still be aware and on guard of this danger, or it would’nt be a CTF match in the first place. Plus if someone like “us” mere mortals at shooting starts playing against Cross or (example) Sesshomaru (my italian friend ^^), well if you add no ua chance, and no mines, and no remotes.. it still ends badly for who’s ever trying to defend or take back his own flag. So in our opinion you HAVE to give people the possibility to defend himself or the flag.

    The same speech comes with the remotes, we are celebrating the game itself!!
    So in order to do it how it should be done, we should celebrate in fact F.E.A.R. to it’s 100% not just removing some parts because some people don’t like it despite what others think..
    Celebrating F.E.A.R. means in all of it’s way of saying it, celebrating the remotes, the mines and so on to the even last punch glitch of ua. That ofc should extend also to SW but we can understand that it’s a special case and we all agree that we should remove them or even give only 1 ammo.
    Speaking of ua, i want to put on paper that the ua punch glitch is allowed since technically it wouldn’t be in this tournament..
    I come from a background of some years spent in [FF-pl] UA CTF server, where people despite learning and perfectioning the ua ability through some solid experience, (and not being able to shoot only messing up the actual game strategy but only trying to kill..) people started actually develope lots of strategies, also along with some basic things like a single remote or a mine..
    If you remove those from a CTF, leaving with only 1 portable medikit, 5 seconds of respawn Raw style, and remove extratime, putting even only 1.3 or 1.2 Runspeed.. well what remains in this tournament is to me and to others, just a normal TDM match, since who shoots best wins in every single case, even with random teams..

    I speak in name of some other players too that might reply in this thread, but here’s ours way of seeing the CTF rules of this tournament

    RULES:

    -Maps: Allowing some custom maps added to the list, i mean the ones actually well made and respectable lag-bug free custom maps. Dankos can be one of the admins who actually knows or might help us togheter choose which one we could use. Speaking also of MXT, FF-pl, Obituary’s maps (selected ones)
    Put more than just 5 choosable maps..
    I would also remove Labs since for a 4vs4 it would be almost impossible to spawn near a friend in one side of the map and to prevent the cap on the other side in a 4vs4..
    -Meds : 2
    -Grenades : 2 (to make less probable for people to throw 5 nades at the same time to the enemy base killing everybody and waiting their respawn time)
    -RunSpeed : Some said 1.5 if not 1.4, but defenately not 1.3
    -FlaggerRunSpeed: Well pretty much the same difference that we would feel in MXT, i’m not sure about it’s exact speed, but MUST allow the flag carrier to run unarmed and being able to defend himself if needed with UA. At the same time it shouldn’t overslow the carrier with a gun.. (As you see i’m thinking about both parts)
    -TimeLimit : 13 (not less but discussable time)
    -ScoreLimit : 0
    -FriendlyFire : OFF/ON fine to me
    -RespawnWaitTime: 0 seconds (but ofc if you use FF-pl map Fatalx like is used in MXT, since the map was created and meant to be played in the ua kind of way, it would be pretty much impossible to get the flag if not by a random case or pure luck..) Only in one of those cases with immediate respawn at the flag base i would put at most 1 second of delay)
    -Weapons Restrictions: Superweapons restricted or with 1 ammo only (fine to me but it would be the only exception of what i said above)
    -Mines: OK – 1 max at hand (remember the possibility of location restrictions)
    -Remotes: OK
    -extratime: ON 3-5 minutes
    -all other settings: deafult

    Gameplay main rules reported at the site http://anniversary10thoffear.tourney.cc/

    GAMEPLAY RULES:

    1) OK – Just write that it’s allowed to crouch punch people.
    2) OK – Explain “info : Lean is allowed”
    3) OK with conditions that there must be at least 2-3 refree per match, 1 on each team. (the third is if something happends to 1 of the 2) And if there are 2 refrees of the same clan they must ofc stay in separate teams and there must be a third refree not from the same clan. Useless to say refree must be neutral and let people concentrate and not type anything except warnings or hi’s, gg ecc, must not use scmd commands to obstacle the gameplay (like fire, kick player for no reason because they have personal problem with a specific player, ecc) everything of this MUST be viewed and in case reported by the third or one of the refrees in game (with people testifying lol). Save game logs

    4) OK – if the third refree isn’t available there can be selected one by the volunteers (again the third must not have connections with the clan of the other 2, to prevent clan refree rules control, and let the game remain juste)
    5) OK
    6) OK
    7) OK, best with screens and saved logs to discuss any possible problem (2 refrees should take care of this)
    8) Absolutely ok (returning in fact to what said above)
    9) Ok (helps also prevent people not knowing that would be forbidden for refrees to chat their things while people is playing)
    10) If a refree would crash (and since people can hack-crash other people) we are returing again to what i said above meaning.. there is a second refree (and a possible third if those 2 were of the same clan.. not making names but some people are known for disturbing matches or dirty gameplay)
    11) OK, in case of ragequit the pause of 2 minutes still stands, preventing refree of “ragequit accusation”
    12) OK – (little condition: Unless it’s a dirty profit decision, still with logs, screenshots, and third refree there won’t be any objection)
    13) OK about ASPP but since maybe not everybody might read these rules, somebody might forget about taking only 1 per team, so in case i wouldn’t count this in the Warning system.
    14) NOT OK – Admins must not in any single case change the rules since the players agreed to play the game with those specific conditions/rules ecc. Once decided there is no coming back unless for a pragmatical problem (discussed actually here)
    ____________

    Well that’s pretty much it, again sorry for the long post lol. I just add..
    Can every player of the winning team or just the distinguished players of the CTF 10th year tournament earn something like a custom drinking coffee cup or shirt? All the players, or refrees, or donators could send something regardless if 1 or 3 euroes which would be nothing but still a good help to the master server/or for the gift..
    It would be a nice thought.

    If other people also among with those which i’ve discuss with might want to add something please do it.

    s0ftm4rk

    #11968
    Profile photo of Hulk
    Hulk
    Participant

    I agree with André. Read through his post – he has been playing this game for almost 10 years now he knows whats up. I think we can easily trust him here because not only does he care about his gaming experience, but about the whole experience of the community. He posted settings which would benefit every player no reason to doubt this. I don’t have to go deeper into the “settings matter”. Simply adapt the recommended rules for an collectively balanced and smooth gaming experience. However, the only discussable thing here is the runspeed.
    Now we have to choose. Either 1.4 for an overall aggressive unarmed playstyle – which has some disadvantages as mentioned above or simply stick to the most balanced 1.3, which will make sure that the game is as tactical as it’s supposed to be.

    Further ideas? Good, post them.

    cYa

    #11970
    Profile photo of Hulk
    Hulk
    Participant

    Thank you for your long post but I completely disagree with you Andrea. Superweapons are for competetive gaming are bullshit, custom maps are too, runspeed 1.5 too. Just to mention a few things. If you wan’t to celebrate so much well buy yourself a cake and join a public server and spread your nonsense there. -1 man you lost some credibility there.

    #11972
    Profile photo of André
    André
    Member

    s0ft,

    First of all, you have a completely wrong mindset about how a tournament is supposed to be played… A tournament is supposed to have the most balanced rules possible in order to remove the ‘luck’ factor out of matches and to remove results that wouldn’t otherwise be possible. You have a strong bias towards UA and fast gameplay, which is NOT how this game was designed to be played.

    Most of your ideas like runspeed, respawn time, custom maps, medkit limits, having super weapons turned ON but with just 1 ammo (wtf?), are based off of playing in public servers or UA-only servers where there’s NO tactical aspect about it. Just a pair of arms and eyes are needed… I think I can speak for the whole community that we don’t want this kind of playstyle implemented in a tournament, but ofc people are free to comment about this.

    We already have public servers like what you’re describing and, in my opinion, they should stay just that, public servers. This tournament is an opportunity to have a more ‘pure’ and serious playstyle in which the team who makes less mistakes and works together, wins.

    However, I can agree with you on a few of your changes, like allowing proxies and remotes. It introduces a different kind of dynamic into the game, you’re right about that but even though I wouldn’t mind having them on – I played FEAR in a time where proxies and remotes were highly abused by players -, We’ve been playing for too long without them to have it just show up out of nowhere, I think the community (the competitive players at least),have learned to play without them at this point in time.

    I think the idea of having custom maps ON, to be quite fair, is ridiculous. Again, I must remind you that COMPETITIVE playing has little to do with PUBLIC playing. Obviously, it’s the same game but the pace and dynamic of a game changes completely. Have any of these maps been tested or played in a tournament? Were they made to be used in proper matches or just in random public fuck-abouts? It’s not even about the lag or the bugs present in these maps.

    The fact is that the stock maps have been used throughout the years in various tournaments and cups, like Clanbase ladders and cups, ESL CTF ladders and cups, TWL, OBL cups, etc., and so we KNOW that these maps offer the best possible balance in terms of how it’s designed (proper defending/attacking spots, armor/medkit distribution, good/bad cover spots, flags placement, etc.)

    Next time, please don’t be so selfish to suggest rule changes that suit only YOUR playstyle and not that of the other players in this community. We must find a balance and create the best possible rule-set and we’re not gonna manage that with custom-made bullshit because, if I’m quite honest, most of it just fucking sucks.

    A.

    #12002
    Profile photo of s0ftm4rk
    s0ftm4rk
    Member

    I’m surprised how you both think i’m not speaking in name of the community since like 5 people told me to write this down.
    First of all everything i’ve wrote down is not just what i would consider but most of it is actually what people told me and agreed on. So don’t say i lose credibility shit or something like that because i’m saying some idiocy nonsense like every1 should spawn with 200/200 and 2 SW, because THAT’S nonsense. Since i give you and to every single player in fear respect and a chance against random selfish ban in servers asked by someone just because he’s angry, i demand the same respect. (Just to put it out there 1 or 2 of the refrees that i should entrust my gameplay has actually tried to ban me or other players for no reason, in MRSA, when i never done/said anything against them.
    If i don’t see a practical reason against somebody like ping, bad hating behaviour, racism, discrimination ecc, i usually press F2 at the votes to give them a change, make them rats i don’t care, so i like to think i care about the community, i’ve only seen 2 players do the same. (just a statement)
    So before starting don’t you dare say that i never think of the community, or that every thing i wrote is for my selfish god only knows what, or that i’m spreading nonsense since it’s still my opinion along with other people’s.
    I didn’t wrote this to suit MY playstyle but in general balancing also for who plays ua, and i prefer SW off but i have put it out there for who wanted me to write it down.

    1.3 speed is ridiculous since it’s for real, far from a realistic gameplay when unarmed people at war actually fuckin run. Like i said if you put down the settings as they just are you take out every single possibility for a medium-skilled shooter to help or win with his team. The part “This tournament is an opportunity to have a more ‘pure’ and serious playstyle in which the team who makes less mistakes and works together, wins.” well says everything since, the only thing that would matter with these rules and in normal tournaments 1v1s would be shoot better and you win by yourself. Put Cross, Futron and other people like T. and HappyStick (which he should be playing) in the same team against 4 poor christians. Who would you think would win? At least I, yes I, along with other players got the possibility to defend ourselves in closed combat using ua, or make it mines, or make it remotes. Andre, COMPETITIVE playing is made how we WANT to make it, and there isn’t a simple standard despite what admins decided to do in those long years, there are always some minor changes, like the run speed, the hyperpunching, and the medikits and the weapons. Pretty much that changes ALL. The extra medikit was to speed the game up, you use them very quickly anyway and at 90% of the time if there isn’t team work, and the carrier got only the gun and no other things to help himself the flag won’t be captured. Andre just saying “We’ve been playing for too long without them to have it just show up out of nowhere, I think the community (the competitive players at least),have learned to play without them at this point in time.” is in fact 1 more reason to put mines in a server with in fact highly skilled competitive players, that anyway since they’re in fact skilled won’t have any problem with mines.

    And to answer you about custom maps YES they have been used in fact in some tournaments (and oho.. CTF ones). So the reason to just put 5 maps that every single player of fear knows better than his own mouse buttons, despite of course the good reason of well balanced maps ecc, it’s still against the medium skilled players. A “pro” (or even noob) player skill isn’t measured just by how well he memorized or discovered good hiding/shooting places every 2 inches of these maps. (Again a medium player might not now everything here).

    I’ve seen too many aggressive players start bitching other people saying “Aha come on 1v1, you noob (because i know every single shooting spot there and i will kick your ass by stealing every armor and medikit and confronting you as soon as you spawn 100-0)”.
    So the reason to put out there maps that were also made by some of the BEST f.e.a.r. multiplayer mappers that have ever played this game, is also because a “pro” player wouldn’t have any disvantages anyway, but also because it gives everybody the possibility to find new strategies or spots. It’s like the same old 1v1 at docks. Choose an unknown (well balanced and everything, tested, bla bla) map for once, for god’sake.. Right there you can test and analyze at the single detail the skill and the strategy of everybody.

    I think THIS is what means thinking about community since, if the community itself plays they must consider, and decide other options. There is like you said a difference between competitive tournaments and public servers, but again, why do you think MXT started putting new maps? Do you think all of them are bad at: “(proper defending/attacking spots, armor/medkit distribution, good/bad cover spots, flags placement, etc.)”?
    I don’t think so.
    Of course i would prefer to play in a map that is new for everybody, tested for everything. I wouldn’t think a second to say yes, even against some good players. But the same old 1v1 playstyle with the same maps, with the same secret shooting spots that only a restricted “pro” club fear of players knows? With unrealistic runspeed, with 3 nades to reach the moon screaming for a god’s name, without any kind of remotes and mines? No thanks. That wouldn’t be the kind of tournament i (or the majority part of other people of the community, yes put even BB or Chupacabra on the list) would play.

    Everything i said i’ve always said it in a constructive way to help finalize the project. So if in any case you disagree or are just used (i would like to say too much) to a playstyle unlike the rest of the community, feel free to say it in a constructive way 🙂 not like this.
    s0ftm4rk – Andrea

    #12010
    Profile photo of André
    André
    Member

    “I’m surprised how you both think i’m not speaking in name of the community since like 5 people told me to write this down.
    First of all everything i’ve wrote down is not just what i would consider but most of it is actually what people told me and agreed on.”
    – And who are these people? Would they wish to stay anonymous? ;). Like I’ve said before, people are free to comment here… As a matter of fact, my initial idea was to have a proper discussion about this issue, but then I thought nobody was interested after seeing the lack of comments here. Guess I was wrong…

    “1.3 speed is ridiculous since it’s for real, far from a realistic gameplay when unarmed people at war actually fuckin run. Like i said if you put down the settings as they just are you take out every single possibility for a medium-skilled shooter to help or win with his team. The part “This tournament is an opportunity to have a more ‘pure’ and serious playstyle in which the team who makes less mistakes and works together, wins.” well says everything since, the only thing that would matter with these rules and in normal tournaments 1v1s would be shoot better and you win by yourself.”
    – Sorry, but you just showed your ignorance here. CTF involves a lot more than just ‘shooting better’. You need proper tactics, ie: good coordination with your team, who defends, who attacks, who does what when X or Y happens, when to attack, when to defend, and more. Also, what is preventing a ‘medium-skilled’ player from improving his skills? You’re talking as if you were already born ‘medium-skilled’. Remember this: Teamwork makes the dream work ;). Doesn’t matter if your opponent is HappyStick or Futron or whoever… You don’t need amazing aim, as long as you have the willpower and the brains, you can always find a way around it, ESPECIALLY in CTF.
    About the speed, I don’t understand your argument here. You don’t want 1.3 because ‘people at war actually fuckin run’?
    Mate, 1.3 not only does it make sense from a balance point of view (between 1.0 and 1.5, 1.25 would be the most balanced speed theoretically), but since that speed is not possible in-game, if I had to choose between 1.2 and 1.3, I would always choose 1.3. Why? Because with higher speeds, it exaggerates the UA’s power. With 1.3, you can’t run from one corner of the room to the other, dodging bullets and popping medkits, and kill with 2 punches the guy who just emptied his clip in you. Is this, in your opinion, fair? And please don’t use the ‘Oh, I’m not high skilled, UA is my only hope’ argument. You’re not gonna be good at this game without practice. Do you think high skilled players were just born with their aim and knowledge of the game? Ofc not, which is why you must either, practice to become better or just shut up and deal with it. You can still use UA just fine with 1.3, just not as recklessly as in 1.4.

    “Andre just saying “We’ve been playing for too long without them to have it just show up out of nowhere, I think the community (the competitive players at least),have learned to play without them at this point in time.” is in fact 1 more reason to put mines in a server with in fact highly skilled competitive players, that anyway since they’re in fact skilled won’t have any problem with mines.”
    – If you paid attention to my last post, you would see that I’m agreeing with you on this topic. I don’t mind proxies or remotes. I just don’t think they would be welcomed by the majority of players at this point.

    “And to answer you about custom maps YES they have been used in fact in some tournaments (and oho.. CTF ones).”
    – Which tournaments? Can you name a few?

    “So the reason to just put 5 maps that every single player of fear knows better than his own mouse buttons, despite of course the good reason of well balanced maps ecc, it’s still against the medium skilled players. A “pro” (or even noob) player skill isn’t measured just by how well he memorized or discovered good hiding/shooting places every 2 inches of these maps. (Again a medium player might not now everything here).”
    – What? How exactly are the stock maps against the medium-skilled players? The stock maps have been around since the beginning, unlike the custom ones. Yes, everyone knows them, which is why I was against custom maps in the first place ;). The stock maps will make sure we have the most equal match possible because of that same reason. Everyone already knows them. Also, it’s not like ‘pro’ players know exactly all the spots on a map. Most players that this community considers ‘pros’ are pretty much just good 1v1 docks players with good aim. Not all, but most are average players when put in a CTF map ;).

    “I’ve seen too many aggressive players start bitching other people saying “Aha come on 1v1, you noob (because i know every single shooting spot there and i will kick your ass by stealing every armor and medikit and confronting you as soon as you spawn 100-0)”.”
    – No comment….

    “So the reason to put out there maps that were also made by some of the BEST f.e.a.r. multiplayer mappers that have ever played this game, is also because a “pro” player wouldn’t have any disvantages anyway, but also because it gives everybody the possibility to find new strategies or spots. It’s like the same old 1v1 at docks.”
    – How do you know exactly a ‘pro’ player wouldn’t have a disadvantage? Again, this is a naive way of thinking… Just because ‘pro’ players have the best aim when compared to you for example, doesn’t mean they are the better players in a CTF environment. Don’t forget that a ‘pro’ TDM player might not be as good in CTF. Also, what’s keeping you from finding new strategies or new spots on the stock maps? There is always room for improvement.

    “There is like you said a difference between competitive tournaments and public servers, but again, why do you think MXT started putting new maps? Do you think all of them are bad at: “(proper defending/attacking spots, armor/medkit distribution, good/bad cover spots, flags placement, etc.)”?
    I don’t think so.”
    – No offense to the map makers, but name me 1 map being used in today’s servers that was meant to be used in a tournament or competitive play… It’s not about the maps being bad, it’s just that they were never played in a serious tournament, so we don’t know if there are some major balance issues regarding for example how armor is distributed, resulting in an unfair advantage for defending/attacking players, or some overpowered spot where you can see half the map and others can’t see you. It’s just not tested. And we don’t have an active enough community to fix these map problems in case they exist, before the tournament starts. Imagine I spend an afternoon in a custom map learning it, and I find some overpowered spots or some other exploits. I find these and I tell nobody but my team. Then, we use all this OP shit on our opponent and you can’t disqualify us because it’s not a glitch, it’s just the map being unbalanced. Do you think this is fair? Go with stock maps. It’s just the safest option.

    “But the same old 1v1 playstyle with the same maps, with the same secret shooting spots that only a restricted “pro” club fear of players knows?
    – You’re welcome to join us anytime ;).

    EDIT: What a clusterfuck. This forum seriously needs a ‘Quote’ button.

    #12020
    Profile photo of s0ftm4rk
    s0ftm4rk
    Member

    “And who are these people? Would they wish to stay anonymous? ;). Like I’ve said before, people are free to comment here… As a matter of fact, my initial idea was to have a proper discussion about this issue, but then I thought nobody was interested after seeing the lack of comments here. Guess I was wrong…”
    – I told them i would have made a post in the site of the Tournament since MB said i could open a thread there. But actually i can’t 🙂 so that was a false information anyway..
    Was hard to contact just one of them to spread the word that i would made the post here :).

    “Sorry, but you just showed your ignorance here. CTF involves a lot more than just ‘shooting better’. You need proper tactics, ie: good coordination with your team, who defends, who attacks, who does what when X or Y happens, when to attack, when to defend, and more. Also, what is preventing a ‘medium-skilled’ player from improving his skills? You’re talking as if you were already born ‘medium-skilled’. Remember this: Teamwork makes the dream work ;). Doesn’t matter if your opponent is HappyStick or Futron or whoever… You don’t need amazing aim, as long as you have the willpower and the brains, you can always find a way around it, ESPECIALLY in CTF..”ecc.

    – You actually showed your ignorance since you have in fact ignored what i said earlier. That without all of those options this tournament would be played as a normal TDM, flag or without flag.
    What i tried to say until now is exactly what you replied thinking i didn’t say it.
    Of course CTF is more than TDM, but if you remove all things of this game used in a CTF wtf remains?
    So when people “medium-skilled” players like me practice they’re asses off, it won’t matter that:
    1) they won’t know all the secret shooting spots of the default maps and people won’t give a frack
    2) “good coordination with your team, who defends, who attacks, who does what when X or Y happens, when to attack, when to defend, and more.” Sticks to what i said, if you are a noob at shooting or a normal player you’re ded and again nobody gives a frack.
    3) I’ve always been a guy good in team work when everybody else was just busy at shooting, that’s what always made me win lots of CTF matches in many servers despite my skills (even at ua when i was noob)
    4) “Doesn’t matter if your opponent is HappyStick or Futron or whoever… You don’t need amazing aim” – YES, you’re freakin slow, 1 medikit that will help you while turning the corner, cure your foot that somehow will be your next headshot death.
    “..as long as you have the willpower and the brains, you can always find a way around it, ESPECIALLY in CTF” – Only if you know how and are able to use the means at your disposal 🙂 [if you have them tho….]
    5) Speed. From 1.0 to 1.5 1.25 would be theoretically balanced? I hope you’re joking that you mean mathematically, and you actually meant how the runspeed should be more realistic.
    Since you activate Friendly Fire, by coherence, you should put a normal runspeed, and to keep going with the reasoning, YES normally 1-2 punches/knives hits to the throat would KO anybody, especially if you would be an Armacham Replica supersoldier clone which is the player we impersonate in multiplayer in the first place..
    6) Yes if you become a lot better than just good at ua you learn to dodge bullets and you will (using also psychology strategies that some develope, unlike just shooting) empty the enemy’s clip. Again, you’re playin freakin F.E.A.R. not a random FPS. There are characters that avoid bullets in the campaign wtf. Before saying learn to deal with it in this smartass way, don’t ignore the fact that, who actually uses ua, LEARNED to deal against good shooters. So the thing is we found a way to do it, now.. You deal with it. There is people who hate ua at any case, (when to save the day and the match, in some occasions YOU HAVE to use it or you would die making your team lose, just sayin). So to end point 6, don’t over-limit the UA way to play this game, since it’s the “way it’s meant to be played” and since we did practice, i like to say about ua, unlike many of you 🙂

    “Mines. I just don’t think they would be welcomed by the majority of players at this point.”
    – If 90% of people agrees it’s k, if not you still have to give the possibility for the rest of the people to defend themselves or their mates or the flag, with other strategies other than just shooting. Don’t have it against me, i stick with my conservative thoughts of this game, to not fuck it up, more than it already is.

    “Which tournaments? Can you name a few?”
    – Really? Among others you could just scroll down the main page of this site if you care.
    There were also some not open to the public (Public tournaments :D, yes there were also Competitive Closed-Doors Tournaments :D)

    “Maps. The stock maps will make sure we have the most equal match possible because of that same reason. ”
    – Mine reaction too: What?? When a custom map made exactly for the tournament would be putting a player into a position of: learning how to move, deal, hear sounds, run, hide differently, and i could go on forever, ecc. This doesn’t apply to the stock map, that ofc everybody already knows!! “Also, it’s not like ‘pro’ players know exactly all the spots on a map.” I don’t care, trust me they still do it better than the average player. In a normal 1v1 at docks a normal guy would walk around near a window, and a pro player is fukin hidden behind a box, 50 feet away shooting with his gun somehow stuck inside that same box. Physically impossible but it’s a good spot :). Not to mention the good angles where your head is hidden and a player can’t shoot back, well that’s just amazing to counter act for a newbie. See all this would dissapear in a blink of an eye, and would make it more fun to see newbies adapting more quickly than an average “pro” player would. That’s what i call a fair play in a tournament in the first place.

    “Most players that this community considers ‘pros’ are pretty much just good 1v1 docks players with good aim. Not all, but most are average players when put in a CTF map”
    – The shooting skill doesn’t automatically dissapear when the servers has a tag with CTF. Instead in this case, against them, you’re: slowed, medikit limited to 1, remote limited, proxy limited that would help you even cap while counteracting a death occured in .03 seconds.

    “Don’t forget that a ‘pro’ TDM player might not be as good in CTF”
    -Do i have to reply at the same way you do? No comment.. Actually.. let me comment.
    There are TONS of players who like to stay in the middle of the CTF maps shooting at everybody making some kind of mystic barrier between their base, and the enemey team, not caring at all actually at the goal of the match, which is cap the flag. It is ofc 1 of the many strategies but this is just 1 example that proves you’re wrong. If a guy in a TDM gets shot in 0.2 seconds, he doesn’t have a chance in the same or different map used for CTF. Period! Of course, again that would change if there would be a custom map, everybody would need to adapt 🙂 See why i offered these options? It’s a logic that seems you can’t follow.

    “Also, what’s keeping you from finding new strategies or new spots on the stock maps? ”
    -You don’t have time usually to learn at the spot, when you’re shot in 0.3 seconds.

    “It’s not about the maps being bad, it’s just that they were never played in a serious tournament”
    -Pherhaps… Just do it?

    “we don’t know if there are some major balance issues regarding for example how armor is distributed, resulting in an unfair advantage for defending/attacking players”
    -Usually an idiot mapper does what you say, a good mapper puts everything balanced at the both sides of the map, which by the way it’s not the case of some of the stock maps, just sayin.

    “some overpowered spot where you can see half the map and others can’t see you”
    -You discovered hot water, like i just said above that happends every day in TDM 1v1 servers, when there are spots where you can’t counter act some attacks, because you have a wall in front of the enemy that somehow shoots you through the wall.
    And comes again the good logic, a pro players knows all these spots, a newbie doesn’t. The tournament is open to the newbies too, the newbies will lose. Period. But… Custom ma..

    “Imagine I spend an afternoon in a custom map learning it, and I find some overpowered spots or some other exploits.”
    That’s pretty much what happend with the first guy who jumped on the docks black van’s wheel, shooting people 100 meters away. The difference is that in ua servers with custom maps when you find a freakin object to jump on or to use it at your advantage, if you’re good enough you quickly counter act. Against bullets? Ded at the spot. You know the next sentence i won’t repeat it.

    What’s the problem of testing maps anyway?

    Now that the post is finished let’s come to the serious commenting:
    I completely agree with your last sentence though, game colleague :), and i would prefer not to quote again the posts in this childish way. As we showed here togheter (mostly i did) there are many other aspects that people should consider before opening a tournament to the public and choosing options only used by a restricted club of people that has some advantages. Club? No thanks btw, i prefer to stay in the “average club” and play in a match where the game is balanced for Everybody, so every individual can choose his way to deal against someone that has some huge advantages, and still being able to nullify them. That’s what means strategy which is the basic thing of a CTF. If you say you speak for the community, then consider and accept constructive thoughts, instead of choosing the basic rules of your very little club :D.

    Hoping to a better and warmer thread discussion,
    s0ftm4rk

    #12026
    Profile photo of =MXT=Fred.cpp
    =MXT=Fred.cpp
    Keymaster

    Unfortunally (Me, talking as a non-Pro, 4fun, weekend_warrior, custom_content_maker, public_Server player, must say a tournament is not the place to showcase what usually happens in a Public CTF Server.

    I don’t think much people want to try a custom map in a Tournament; Except If the tournament is made specifically for that (for example de_Dust, that may be an interesting option).

    I don’t think using mines, remotes, super weapons (and Penetrator, btw) should be allowed. as we said, Is not a 4fun public server.

    I don’t think 1.4 is that bad, but since this is a democracy thing, I’d just vote for 1.4 and end my comment ^_^

    #12030
    Profile photo of André
    André
    Member

    Ok, I’m too tired to be quoting your text again, so let me just say this: Please don’t compare every gameplay aspect to a 1v1 docks match. Docks is a broken map with broken spawns that unfortunately gained too much popularity between players. I don’t like to play it because of this and it shouldn’t be used as an example for the issue we’re discussing here.

    Secondly, you must also understand that a so-called ‘pro’ player has knowledge in how to use mines and remotes, probably even better than the average player. A complete ‘pro’ player doesn’t only know to aim good… So, for the last time, I AGREE with you on using mines and remotes to give a different dynamic into the game, I’ve been saying this since my first post. It just needs to be seen if the community wants it or not.
    My point is, it won’t make a difference if mines and remotes are on or off, the end result will be the same. I understand that you want to give newbie players a chance but, unless they become better, it won’t help much. Dying in a 1v1 battle will happen regardless if there are proxies/remotes or not.

    I understand your opinion about custom maps, but these maps are NOT TESTED in a tournament. Playing 4v4 vs. skilled players has NOTHING to do with playing 9v7 or 7v5 in MXT server where some people play UA only for fun, some people without sound, some with only super-weapons or with ASP or RPL… This doesn’t happen in tournaments… And there isn’t much attention being given to the details of the map and it’s just not being taken serious overall… You can’t possibly say that a map is good for competitive based only on this! Have you ever played a serious 4v4 CTF match in any of these custom maps? Could we test these custom maps? Sure, we could, but we don’t have an active enough community (as you can see by the activity on this forum…) to test or to fix possible map bugs and glitches… Based on this, we should just go with what we know and use stock maps.
    It’s like comparing apples with oranges…

    Also, I maintain what I said about the speed. Yes, theoretically 1.25 would be the perfect speed because it’s not fast neither slow because in it’s in the middle of the range (1.0;1.5). But disregarding that, 1.3 offers the best commitment between weapons and UA usage. You still have to be careful to not get UA’d in close quarters while using your weapon but cannot also use UA RECKLESSLY, meaning you cannot just run into a room like a headless chicken without a weapon, and go UA the guy who is waiting for u while zoomed, 50m. across the room. This is just not fair to the player using a weapon… I think everyone can understand this logic… Although, you can still UA this guy if he is close to the door where you’re coming in from…
    Like I said, there is a commitment needed. With 1.4 and 1.5, you just run around looking for close quarters fights, and you will get a kill everytime because the other player does not have time to react, since with these speeds the player model is just too fast, even if you’re hitting all of your shots with a weapon. The player moves too fast while the g2a2, for example, shoots with the same rate of fire on all runspeeds. The UA player will get the kill most of the time. Because of this, 1.3 is the way to go.

    What I meant with a good TDM player not being as good in CTF is that, these ‘pro’ TDM players don’t have as much experience playing in CTF maps, because they invested all of their time on TDM maps, and therefore not being as good predicting where players are going to show up from, for example. This alone might make the difference between winning and losing a battle… Also, CTF maps have a lot more long range fights, some players might have good close quarters aim but might not feel so comfortable with long range aiming… We can also take your example with the mines and remotes… Some good TDM players might know all good proxy spots on TDM maps but not on CTF maps. As you can see, the skill of a certain player might worsen if 1 or more of these situations apply…

    Also, you keep saying ‘dying in 0.2 seconds’. Do you even understand why you die so fast? Have you never hit all of your shots as soon as you see someone and they instantly die? Yes? So as you can see this is not a secret ‘pro’ club thing ;).

    And, no, I’m not defending the interests of the ‘pro’ club. In fact, I don’t like most ‘pro’ players attitudes and I generally don’t get along with them. If you must know, I’m only friends with 3 or 4 ‘pro’ players. 😉
    Jokes aside, what I’m trying to achieve here, regardless of what you may think about what me, is to create a near perfect rule-set that will allow us to enjoy our game. Noob or pro. I have been playing this game since 2006 and I like this game too much to be selfish and try to win this tournament with a set of rules that would give me an advantage. That is not how I am as a person or as a player.

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